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| The Haitian Situation; Derious Dicussion | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 17 2010, 03:12 PM (148 Views) | |
| Zeth | Jan 17 2010, 03:12 PM Post #1 |
It's a good source of potassium!
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So this definitely falls into a more "Serious Discussion" than debate category. So what are people thinking about this? Personally, aside from the general loss of life and property, I have to say that the scenario itself is rather humourous in a grim sort of fashion. Really, think about. This is HAITI we're talking about. They've been in constant strife and civil warfare for...well, seems like forever. In fact, for the independent country of Haiti, virtually is forever; they've been infighting shortly after independence from France, and stayed that way. It's consistently been the poorest nation in the western hemisphere. Nobody has ever cared about Haiti. Haiti was Haiti. Not the Dominican Republic--some people enjoy that half of Hispaniola. Suddenly, this tiny little hell on earth was rocked by a natural disaster enough to level even the most prosperous and technologically advanced nations on the planet. What happens? Everyone suddenly cares. It's amazing, really. Suddenly, relief that only the most ideological of philanthropists have been begging for for decades has been flown in ten times past expectations in a single shipping flight. News crews from Britain and the US have flocked to the little half-an-island, decrying the terrible fate of people "who have lost everything they've worked their whole life for." That's right all 60 years' worth of scrap metal and junked plastic covering a stash of smuggled arms and a meager supply of something disturbing that constitutes this week's meal. Now some of you are probably thinking I've a raving prejudice against Haitians. I don't, I'm stating fact. It sucked to live in Haiti. They had so little to begin with, that the earthquake leveling their capital city is something they know how to deal with because they were int he process of doing it themselves. Now that people finally care, and Haiti is getting relief resources, restoration and stabalisation can actually occur for what may be the first, perhaps second time in the nation's history. What I'm wondering is this: Aside from the maybe 200,00 deaths--because death is rarely a good thing--is this earthquake actually a BAD thing for Haiti? |
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| Another Random Geek | Jan 17 2010, 03:16 PM Post #2 |
Chapter Master of the Blood Angels
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Um... yes. It's still a bad thing. Because a few years from now, the rubble will have been cleaned up, and aid will stop coming. And things will be bad, just like always, only now, half the country's DEAD, so it's even worse. Just saying. |
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| Cataphrak | Jan 17 2010, 04:28 PM Post #3 |
Shut up, I know what I'm doing.
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Yes, this is an abso-fucking-lutely TERRIBLE thing to happen to Haiti, and I'm saying this as a resident of pretty much the only country to EVER care about the place before this all happened (1 400 Canadians are still unaccounted for, 6 of the dead so far recovered happen to be CIDA aid workers). Lemme explain. The aid coming into Haiti right now is pretty much recovery stuff; food, temporary shelter and the like. Like ARG said, the food will get eaten, the shelter will be worn out, and the 3 000 US marines keeping order right now will get shipped back. In about a month when the Olympics start here, everyone will forget about Haiti, and things will return to what it was like before the earthquake, only worse. Now they have no homes to hide in when the armed gangs come knocking, or when some new guy decides that he wants to be president and appeals for aid from the west to oppose the LAST "provisional head of state" the west put there. Haiti needs food and tents and blankets NOW, but in the long term, sending those things to assuage our collective consciences on the hope that things will get better is no better than sending food to Gaza hoping that it'll make the Israelis and Palestinians friends. The fact is, Haiti will get better when we commit to a long-term development mandate, like what CIDA's been doing for years, but BIGGER; advisors, investment, financial support, and most of all, troops ready to go in to restore order if necessary, especially from CERTAIN neighbours who seemed all to willing to forcibly remove the country's head of state when it suits THEM. |
   -----Smexy-----|----Smartass----|-----...Zeth----- Spambot Kills: x60 | |
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| RotenDrache | Jan 19 2010, 09:05 PM Post #4 |
*playing a piano*
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I will not lie, even now I do not care for Haiti. From the get go the country of Haiti was crumbling, the earthquake just toppled the buildings a bit quicker than the time the buildings would last. From an engineering and architectural point of view the buildings of the country were indeed an accident waiting to happen, the buildings were not build on a sound foundation and there was no structural reinforcement to help keep the roofs from caving into living space. Even now, with the aid being food and shelter, there is no way the country of Haiti can actually recover from this natural disaster. Without a sound infrastructure the country can not recover. I may be harsh and unforgiving but the country has no hope at this time. I have nothing against Haiti but the country has made too many mistakes and now it has started to catch up to them. |
 "Ich werde diese Klavier spielen, weil ich böse bin." People that know my real name go ahead and use it, I don't care as much if you do anymore. | |
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| Cataphrak | Jan 20 2010, 12:48 PM Post #5 |
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Shut up, I know what I'm doing.
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Haiti has managed to screw up royally in the past, but putting all the blame on their lack of building codes is avoiding the real problem, it's like looking at a starving person on the street and blaming them for not learning to cook. We know full well that Haitians would LOVE to adhere to the same building codes that we have, but this is impossible, partially due to the fact that it has been, for the near entirety of its history, a plaything of the great powers of the West. To blame the Haitians for their own poverty and political instability is only ignoring the amount of harm that the apathy of the west and the meddling of the United States have inflicted on the nation in the long term. |
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-----Smexy-----|----Smartass----|-----...Zeth----- Spambot Kills: x60 | |
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| Christian | Jan 20 2010, 05:42 PM Post #6 |
Silent Assassin
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It seems they got hit with a second earthquake. My views on this situation are relative to Zeth's. In fact, I never even heard of the country until this happened, and everyone is now acting like it's almost as bad as 9/11 or Hurricane Katrina. I personally do not see myself contributing to this "devastation". |
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| Zeth | Jan 20 2010, 06:20 PM Post #7 |
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It's a good source of potassium!
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And you know what's interesting? A cruise line that rents a private beach from the Haitian government is still operating on that beach after the second quake this morning. They've opened their employment doors wide open to more Haitains. The reasoning, obviously, is to help get Haitians earning their own money again quickly (or for the first time ever, depending) and at least keep the last straw of the Haitian economy from blowing over. Is Cata and ARG's scenario plausible, that they'll go back to killing each other when the relief comes only with 50% plus already dead and with no homes to hide behind? Very much so. But heck, it's equally plausible that with a truly blank slate, the Haitians'll emerge 15-20 years from now as a very pleasant tourist destination. The Dominican Republic seems to be making the best of that, even if the drug trade has picked up some steam lately. (Furthermore, aside from even more illegal immigration, has anyone heard even the slightest bit of television or radio news coverage on the impact of these 7.0 and 6.1 earthquakes on the other half the same bloody island? What? No?) It is true, Red, Christian, and I have a very stereotypical American view on this situation: Who cares? Yeah, the west in general has given Haiti the shaft for nearly all of modern history--and a bit before that--but now somebody actually cares (at least superficially, w/e). All I'm getting out of this entire thing is that God woke up one day and said "I feel like smiting a nation today. *Throws dart at globe*" |
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| Cataphrak | Jan 20 2010, 08:44 PM Post #8 |
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Shut up, I know what I'm doing.
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I never said anything about you personally, any more than you can blame ANY old Japanese man for the Rape of Nanjing. The point is, the reason why Haiti suffered so much in the first place and the reason why the country never WILL become a resort property the way its headed is because of the meddling of the US government in its internal politics, leading to massive political instability, the kind that does NOT lend itself well to inviting foreign capital. Without foreign development, there is now incoming cash, no incoming cash means a low standard of living and low general income. This leads to a situation where Haitians can't afford safe housing, and the government has neither the money nor the stable infrastructure to subsidize and enforce safe building practices. |
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-----Smexy-----|----Smartass----|-----...Zeth----- Spambot Kills: x60 | |
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| Teenage Mage | Jan 20 2010, 09:12 PM Post #9 |
I'm not inclined to resign through maturity
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It IS as bad as Hurricane Katrina, and worse than 9/11*. That it happened in a different country that no one routinely pays any attention to does not make the scale of the destruction any less. *On a scale of destruction and devastation, that is, not on a political scale. |
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| Another Random Geek | Jan 20 2010, 10:12 PM Post #10 |
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Chapter Master of the Blood Angels
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So, if I'm reading this correctly, and I really hope I'm not, Dubya kicked out Aristide just to spite Clinton and prevent his nation-building attempts from actually working... Please tell me I'm wrong here. |
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| Christian | Jan 21 2010, 06:07 PM Post #11 |
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Silent Assassin
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Yes, I see what you're getting at and I agree, but I was referring to the political side, and more of my opinion than fact. |
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| Cataphrak | Jan 21 2010, 06:39 PM Post #12 |
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Shut up, I know what I'm doing.
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What do you think I've been discreetly linking to for the past three days? We can't really blame Dubya's penchant for regime change at this point though. With a country as close and as small as Haiti, a sustained reconstruction effort like what we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan should have worked, unfortunately, nobody cared enough once the news of Aristide's ouster faded away. Surprisingly, it's all based on economics, allow me to explain. The Principle of Maximization (a universal principle, one which all humans are subject to) states that all people are out for their own self-interest in one way or another, no exceptions. The Principle of Substitution states that a person is willing to trade one good for another, as long as the other good is wanted more, or has more "utility" at that particular moment. When Aristide was removed a couple years ago, people cared, just as people care now. They donated money, they went to protests, they did this because in their opinion, it was worth more to assuage their conscience or appear "politically aware" than it was to spend their time doing something else. Now, the human conscience is a funny thing, it is satisfied by one lump sum payment of satisfaction when in reality, the things that cause guilt in the first place require constant maintenance costs. So, when the rallies die down and the media attention fades to something else (like the Olympics, which start in about three weeks), the media shifts its attention, and people find it more worthwhile to care about Team Canada winning gold than about the fact that Haitians still live in a place where government authority is patchy at very best, a place which is still the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. When that happens, we will simply lose interest in Haiti, any resurgence of sentiment will be driven away by that warm feeling we got from going to one rally, or wearing red that one Tuesday, or donating that one fiver. The people will forget, and the governments of the first world will once again have a blank check to return Haiti to what they see as it's rightful place, namely; their bitch. Speaking of Econ, my lecture is starting, I have to go now. |
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-----Smexy-----|----Smartass----|-----...Zeth----- Spambot Kills: x60 | |
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| Another Random Geek | Jan 21 2010, 09:12 PM Post #13 |
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Chapter Master of the Blood Angels
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I'm not a moron, I knew we both installed and removed Airistide. I just assumed that the United States had a motive that kinda sorta made sense. I mean, attacking Iraq, while amoral at best, did have SOME logic to it. We want oil. Iraq has oil. Therefore, we will attempt to install a regime that will give us cheap oil. While that particular plan didn't exactly work out, there was SOMETHING that theoretically could have been gained. What I assumed, and I realize I may have been wrong, was that it was thought that SOMETHING of value could have been gained by SOMEONE, otherwise it hardly would have been worth it, whether it be more favorable trading rights, better security, etc. I just couldn't figure out what could be gained from an island with a whole lot of nothing on it, so I asked if anyone could come up with a reason for US regime change in Haiti beyond spite because the implications of the U.S. totally fucking a country for no reason is profoundly disturbing. In short, I found it hard to believe, and still have trouble believing that the American assisted overthrow of Airistide had no motive save "fuck em, why not?" While I realize that the operation was unjustified, and probably done for little gain, I still can't see why ANYONE would bother screwing with the Haitians if there's nothing to gain, since as Cata says, people, and by extension, governments are out for their own self interests. That is what I'm trying to figure out. Edited by Another Random Geek, Jan 22 2010, 07:50 AM.
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| Cataphrak | Jan 22 2010, 01:18 AM Post #14 |
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Shut up, I know what I'm doing.
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I think that Haiti AND Iraq were both in essence, publicity stunts, to show that the Bush administration did NOT negotiate at the expense of getting things done, that it was willing to take a strong stance on whatever they disagreed with. While this probably scored massive points with the right-wing party base, it was not particularly considerate to the locals involved, but then again, the eventuality of people like Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh worrying about people outside the US is rather unlikely. |
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-----Smexy-----|----Smartass----|-----...Zeth----- Spambot Kills: x60 | |
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| Nyx | Jan 29 2010, 11:47 AM Post #15 |
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I avoided this topic because I never really had the motivation or stamina to really post anything valuable in it about the situation. I don't know anything about Haiti other than some of my family is from there and that they speak French. What I am going to say is this: It's funny how everyone can live their daily lives and worry about what they need, what they want, what time it is, where they need to be etc.... but once something extremely tragic happens to someone else, all of a sudden they turn on the switch to be a selfless, caring person. Why do we only care about other people when it suits us best? When it puts a label on our reputation if we don't do something about the situation? Why do we only give ourselves to other people when something bad happens? And why do we try and butter people up when something good happens? I know so many people who walk by charity funds and flyers/posters and don't even take the time or day to even read them even if they don't want to help or if they can't help. But if myspace, facebook, twitter, youtube and the whole world talks about it, then all of a sudden they're on the bandwagon to look like some great person for helping people in need. I don't mind helping people and I love to see others help people, but when you help someone to boost YOUR self and YOUR ego, then you're doing it for the wrong reason. Yeah, if they get the money/food/education whatever it may be, then it shouldn't really matter because then both parties win. But it's the karma, I'm talking about here. If you are only helping someone to impress someone else and to make yourself feel better, then that personal gain is worthless. If you are going to help someone and take the time out of your day to make a change in the world, do it because you want to make someone else feel good, you want to make their life better, you are giving your time to help them spend less time suffering so that they can live in happiness like you do. Tiger Woods was recently caught in a rendezvous, no? I don't know the details but the headlines in magazine is enough to tell. He was ashamed and hated on for cheating on his wife. Many people praised him for his talent in golf and a lot of kids looked up to him. Sure, just because he cheated on his wife, that doesn't make him a horrible golfer now or anything, but it does give him a bad label. So what does he do to redeem himself? Oh! What do you know? Haiti just had an earthquake, so I'll make a HUGE donation to that and everyone will love me again because I'm such a nice person for donating a million dollars to this country in need. In the end, no matter what your motive is for helping, you're helping. I just don't think it's right to do something good when you are doing it for the wrong reason or if you are expecting something out of it. When you are helping someone else, you are doing something for another person, not yourself. And well.... that's all I have to say about that. :3 |
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